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Question From: Michele Stanger Looking for legal council in China re: manufacturing dispute click here to reply to this question Email this topic to a friend	<<Prev Message \| Next Message>>

12/5/2007 7:45:53 PM
I am having some problems with a manufacturer in China and would like to get some information on my legal rights there. Any suggestions or info would be greatly appreciated.
Reply from Furniture World Magazine
12/7/2007 3:25:23 PM
Michelle, you can contact the PRC Commercial Office at: the following web address. This message board rejects any message that has an aitch tee tee pee before it, so just ad it to the beginning with no www. ://us.mofcom.gov.cn/ Regards, Neil Doherty
Reply from Michele Stanger
12/7/2007 7:52:18 PM
Thanks so much for the info!
Reply from David Ballard
12/10/2007 4:18:48 PM
In the light of harsh reality, you are probably wasting your time if you have already paid the mfgr. Most importers, like my company, have a China based staff of Quality Contol inspectors who make sure all is to our specs before shipping, and we do not pay until we receive product at our US warehouses and also inspect there. Other than that, about the only clout you might have is the promise of more business, and maybe then they will replace defective parts or items. Unfortunately, there are many small companies trying to source direct who don't have the infrastructure in place to properly do so. I have never heard of anybody in the furniture industry successfully using the China legal system for redress. I would suggest you not waste your time and money, but rather spend it to employ a QC company working for you in the future. It will add 5-10% to your first costs, but well worth it when you consider the sad alternative, which you are painfully experiencing.
Reply from Neil
12/11/2007 11:17:27 AM
David - I understand your position regarding the frustrations that Michele would realize in pursuing this matter. But, Michele (and others) should indeed contact the PRC Commercial Office in matters like this. If anything, it can contribute towards an improvement to the situation that exists regarding claims. Many people do not understand the protocol of dealing with centralized economies. And, even though the factories there may be owned by interests outside of that centralized economies, the centralized gov't there is in fact a great influence in each and every factory. And, while you and I may understand their position towards quality or other claims, many people (like Michele) may not. They do not have the long term and broad experience in global trade. If the PRC is going to continue being a major supplier of products to other economies, they will have to adjust to what is commonly accepted protocol in those marketplaces. And, the more buyers that do register their complaints with the commercial office will indeed contribute towardschange. Their prices may be enticingly low - But, not so much that marketplaces will not demand conformity. There are always other options. And, with all economic factors that are now occurring, these options can become more viable.
Reply from Michele Stanger
12/13/2007 12:34:14 PM
I am definitely going to contact the PRC regarding this. I will also be looking for another manufacturer for my project in the new year which maybe David can help me with. Thanks for this info guys. Very helpful.
Reply from Frank Wang
12/18/2007 9:17:58 PM
Michele I come from China and worked over 7 years in furniture industry. I agree with David Ballard No need to spend your time and money to settle this problem by legal system The good suggestion is to purchase a China based purchasing agent to controll the quality you know we have too many furniture manufacturers here you can not afford to "try" every one and find the right factory We based here in China, and we can controll the quality and we know the factory well Thanks Frank
Reply from Frank Wang
12/18/2007 9:19:57 PM
Michelle I mean to purchase through a purchaseing agent based in China, they will controll the quality for you only 5% commission Frank
Reply from Michele Stanger
12/25/2007 12:26:05 PM
I believe that I was dealing with an intermediary in this capacity. I never dealt with the manufacturer directly. It was an American man living there that sourced out the manufacturer. Maybe someone knows him? His name is Scott Elkins. He signed the non disclosure agreement and said that I would have my first sample in 4 to 6 weeks. Well over one year later I got it. It needed alot of work. He then said that I would get a second sample within a month or so. Of course it never arrived. I obviously was getting very angry at the whole situation. Scott said that the manufacturer would not give me my money back. That they had invested money of their own in the project. Scott also said that he would not release anything until he was satisfied with the quality. All fine, but could he give me a timeline. No, of course not. Anyway, Scott Elkins now does not return any of my emails regarding this. I have wasted three years of my time. By now I was hoping to be producing several more fixtures into my line. It's so frustrating. I am sick of people getting away with this type of behaviour. I will continue to pursue him even if I have to come to China. In the meantime, starting in early 2008 I will be looking for a reputable company to deal with my fixtures and hopefully get this off the ground asap.
Reply from Darwin
12/26/2007 8:52:32 AM
We do the manafacture in java indonesia we ve been co operate with usa company name saxon wakefield, is there any some one knows , is this comapny still running?
Reply from Michele Stanger
2/1/2008 6:38:11 PM
Just to keep everyone who has given me advice on this in the loop. I have emailed and left several messages with the PRC Commercial office over the past month and have still not heard back from them.
Reply from Roger
3/25/2008 11:02:06 AM
Michele, I currently live and work here in China and have done so for the past ten years. Along the way I have had similar experiences so trust me - I do know how you feel. With the PRC Commercial office, you are mostly likely wasting your time. Often these sort of entities are window dressing for people like us to feel comfortable enough to invest our money here. Who knows just what they do, but I suspect they spend their days drinking tea from a mayonnaise jar, playing cards and smoking unfiltered cigarettes. I would agree with what "David Ballard" said: If you want to source direct, you need to be working with people who have the infrastructure in place to properly do so." It sounds like you had the right idea by working with someone on the ground, but unfortunately this individual may not have been the best choice. China is a lot like the wild west sometimes and that means the many "fly by night types" come with the territory. Choose suppliers and partners carefully. Do you know where exactly this "Scott Elkins" person was residing in China? Though China is a huge country and more and more foreigners seem to arrive here daily, on some levels the expatriate community here can at times be quite small. With some additional details it may (thats a big may) be possible to locate this person. Also, take a moment to view the videos on this blog - trust me, its worth the time: www.acf-china.com/blog/2007/11/26/brits-get-rich-in-china/ It may not get you your money back but... at least you will know you are not alone (and might even be able to get a good laugh out of it too).
Reply from Johnson Zhong
3/29/2008 5:47:42 AM
hello Michele Stanger: this is Johnson, a Chinese with good colleage edcuation, now living in Suzhou China which is very close to Shang Hai.I am a purchase agent of English Hayter components and Flymo Garden products. we have cooperate for nearly 5 years which has built a long term co-operation relationship. China is quick developping, you do can purchase the good quality yet cheap product if you have some reliable person to help you who understand the Chinese market well. the person you are chosing should be loyal, and the more important thing is he need be quality minded. he should understand how to control the quality. with this kind of person help you, your business will be much much safer. actually, I can help you in this aspect, if you are interest, you can contact me have a detail chat: mail: Johnson.zhong@hotmail.com cell: +86 0138 6257 3264
Reply from Neil
4/6/2008 5:28:48 PM
Michelle, I am coming back to this post because as I was doing some on-line work for my own website, this topic popped-up on one of the responder's own website. Unbelievably, they used it (on their site) to further promote their business - That is, as an example of why using services such as their's is the only way of doing business in the PRC. I respect the fact that the other's responding are indeed describing this unfortunate reality (of doing business in the PRC) - But, the fact that you did not get a response from the PRC Commercial Office should have been a concern to them, not simply seen as an opportunity to "plug" themselves. If you want to contact me, and send me details of your situation, I will also write to the PRC Commercial office, and ask them why they did not follow-up with you. If anything, it will help people like you when others point out to the central PRC government that it is in their long term best interests to be attentive to these matters.
Reply from Fred
4/6/2008 11:32:20 PM
This is a request to keep this interesting discussion going. It seems we have a polarized discussion here, some victims, some defending PRC, others blaming the situation in China. I will be most excited to read some response from the "PRC Commercial Office" here, they should take this opportunity to promote themselves, and show how much influence they have. Scot Elkins is a crook, and so is probably your manufacturer, Michelle. But where are the good guys? the real good guys, not some who pretend to be ... or are to naive ...
Reply from Michele Stanger
4/8/2008 11:55:10 AM
In response to several of the above questions. Scott Elkins lives at A7-9B Yishan garden, 1968 Wutong Road, Yantian Shenzhen 518081. Or at least he did. The PRC never even returned one phone call. I left at least 5 or 6 messages over the period of 3 months and emailed them as well. Not any response what so ever. Johnson, I will email you in a few weeks when I have the time. I am currently travelling for work on a hectic schedule. Thanks for everyone's interest. I can't wait to view the blog Roger sent...
Reply from Roger
4/14/2008 11:21:36 AM
Michelle - what contact details did you use to call/email the PRC Commercial Office? I actually live right down the street from the main PRC commercial office. Maybe I could stroll by and see if anyone ever received your emails. Neil - yes, most of us ARE "plugging" our business because generally we don't want to see customers who are new to China get cheated much in the same way we ourselves have been cheated in the past. Thats specifically what our businesses are all about - preventing these sort of things from happening in the first place. When David Ballard said: If you want to source direct, you need to be working with people who have the infrastructure in place to properly do so - Basically what he was saying was you need to learn how to do business here in the "wild west" without getting ripped off. Has anyone viewed the "Brits Get Rich in China" video's on our blog, and if so, whats the general feeling? I mean the reality of it is that for all the window dressing for western eyes (the mofcom etc) much of business here still occurs in the "Brits get rich" sort of manner. Yes, it is appalling the way business works here. I don’t condone it, I just have giving up fighting on some things which seem to be of no use/no effect. 1.3 billion people is a lot of battles to be fighting.
Reply from Michele Stanger
4/24/2008 4:33:21 PM
Hi Roger. I actually never got any real person on the phone or via email at the PRC. I emailed the general address provided on the site several times explaining my situation and I left many voice messages on the extension that was "legal council". Never to be returned. As for the "Brits get rich in China"... It's hilarious and very frightening at the same time. Almost makes me want to boycott anything to do with China. All due to human greed we will have a seriously decimated planet. There are still high end furnishings being manufactured outside of China. Do you have any advice how to find manufacturers to approach?
Reply from Michele Stanger
4/24/2008 4:34:34 PM
How do I find a reputable QC company in China to employ?
Reply from Zheut-Fai Chang
7/3/2008 7:15:53 AM
I think youre last remark was harsh. Not all chinese traders are out for your money. we pride ourself in doing good trade with the world and had done so for a long time. humun greed is all over and not just in china.
Reply from Michele Stanger
7/3/2008 12:44:18 PM
My comment regarding human greed goes both ways including people who want to get things manufactured cheap there with no regard to consequences. I agree, not all people are bad anywhere. I do think that as a country though, China needs to put some laws in place (as does the US and act upon them more astringently) tightening up on environmental destruction.

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